Curse

*lemming* · Oct 19, 2010, 11:22 AM // 11:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Which is fine, and I agree, but we are getting distracted from the point. I'm not arguing that those with experience from Guild Wars wont have an advantage in Guild Wars 2, I'm saying for the good of the game those people should be spread out.

If you add an easy way to quantify and recognize Guild Wars achievements in Guild Wars 2, old players are more likely to be sucked back together into their old cliques. This would a bad thing for the competitive game. It would be far better if these players were also likely to just mingle with the new crowd.

How do you plan on making them mingling? You should know well enough that recruitment is almost never done through titles - personal acquaintance and word of mouth are far more likely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Sure, but if ArenaNet is smart that wont be the competitive format of choice.

I hope you didn't just say that you think random teams should be part of the competitive format of choice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Agreed, but in absolutely no way does having a title imply that you are competent.

The post that was being referred to when this line of discussion began is as follows:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninja Ninja

Were talking about organized pvp, its either going to stay the same or become unorganized and since guilds with gwamm and 50/50 are going to happen its not a long shot, pvp guilds basing performance on you're past gw1 experiences during the start of gw2 is a definite.

Interpreting that as referring only to PvP titles is one way of looking at it, but I'm pretty sure you'd agree that "performance" really has nothing to do with them.

Ellix Cantero · Oct 19, 2010, 11:29 AM // 11:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlyaraSaykomora

I do however hope that they hire someone soon who cares about the PvP environment. It seems like the seesaw got toppled over.

It's too late. GW1 isn't really bringing in new players, and the PVP community has dwindled to the point that it's non-sustainable now.

About the only thing they could do to bring life back into it would be to give away PvP-only versions of GW1 for free.

Ninja Ninja · Oct 19, 2010, 12:25 PM // 12:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Which is fine, and I agree, but we are getting distracted from the point. I'm not arguing that those with experience from Guild Wars wont have an advantage in Guild Wars 2, I'm saying for the good of the game those people should be spread out.

If you add an easy way to quantify and recognize Guild Wars achievements in Guild Wars 2, old players are more likely to be sucked back together into their old cliques. This would a bad thing for the competitive game. It would be far better if these players were also likely to just mingle with the new crowd.

Its no question the success rate for a new player would go up if he had old players on his team but it would also mean the success rate would go down for the old player. So why would any old player want to be put in that situation?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Agreed, but in absolutely no way does having a title imply that you are competent.

It doesn't mean you're more competent but I would take 50/50 over a new player any day because I would know that any time spent on him wouldn't be wasted, 50/50 shows he has dedication and is less likely to quit for years.
I can't say how many times I ran people in my guild through the game only for them to quit the next day.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Interpreting that as referring only to PvP titles is one way of looking at it, but I'm pretty sure you'd agree that "performance" really has nothing to do with them.

Performance has everything to do with pvp titles, you only get points for winning, so a title is record of wins. Granted it is biased because it doesn't show the loses.

Still Number One · Oct 19, 2010, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninja Ninja

Performance has everything to do with pvp titles, you only get points for winning, so a title is record of wins. Granted it is biased because it doesn't show the loses.

PvP titles can be bought, and a mediocre player can get carried to a level above their play. Look at all the Bspikers with high champ titles. They aren't good. Their champ title doesn't indicate their skill. They won a lot of games, but they did it by abusing a broken skill-less build.

Titles really have nothing to do with performance. I have no hero title but I guarantee you when I still played I was better then most rank 6 players. I just didn't play HA because I found it to be a stupid boring arena. I'd rather GvG if I found 8 people to play with.

Top players don't look for titles when they recruit players. They look for people they know or people recommended by people they know.

Basically, PvP titles don't mean a thing. The only time people ever take them into consideration is when they are PuGing or because they are stupid. Yea the best players probably have a high title. But not all people with high titles are the best players.

Skyy High · Oct 19, 2010, 04:22 PM // 16:22

One other thing: I'd like to point out how the biggest e-sport fanbase evar, that of Starcraft, has already largely migrated to SC2. There's no reason to think that GW1 PvP players will stick won't move on to GW2, unless the PvP is actually worse.

fortior · Oct 19, 2010, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by gooeydark

lol, That will not be the case for GW1 vets.

Contrary to what you believe, we encourage the change in the GvG metagame to keep things fresh. The "pro gamer" PvP'ers on the Test Krewe atm constantly push for skill balancing and game mechanic re-works. If we as "pro gamers" maintain our interest in GW1 in the future up until GW2 release, I have no doubt most, if not all, of us will make the transition.

There isn't always symmetry between the pro gamer scene of each individual game.

that's really cool of you
not trolling

also at above, sc2 is trying really hard to be sc1 with better graphics, gameplay is the same with minute changes to balance and controls.

Ninja Ninja · Oct 19, 2010, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

PvP titles can be bought, and a mediocre player can get carried to a level above their play. Look at all the Bspikers with high champ titles. They aren't good. Their champ title doesn't indicate their skill. They won a lot of games, but they did it by abusing a broken skill-less build.

More like one title can be bought, trying to buy HA title after r3 is incredibly slow, expensive and impractical. Part of pvp is always keeping up with the meta.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

Titles really have nothing to do with performance. I have no hero title but I guarantee you when I still played I was better then most rank 6 players. I just didn't play HA because I found it to be a stupid boring arena.

You get rewarded for performance by consecutive wins, that's where the majority of you're title points will come from.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

I'd rather GvG if I found 8 people to play with.

Join a guild.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

Top players don't look for titles when they recruit players. They look for people they know or people recommended by people they know.

I guess that would apply if you're into monthly competitions but any team has the potential to make it to hall of heroes and you only need a ranked guild for gvg.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

Basically, PvP titles don't mean a thing. The only time people ever take them into consideration is when they are PuGing or because they are stupid. Yea the best players probably have a high title. But not all people with high titles are the best players.

If they want to cheat themselves and get the titles through gimmicks, that's their decision. But I can promise if they didn't have the patience to get them legitimately, then they won't have the patience to keep playing.

*lemming* · Oct 19, 2010, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninja Ninja

Performance has everything to do with pvp titles, you only get points for winning, so a title is record of wins. Granted it is biased because it doesn't show the loses.

Ruling out egregious exploitation, the correlation still isn't perfect because of the time factor. It's most apparent in a format like HA, where time is the primary factor in rank, but there are plenty of quality GvGers who are only champ 3-5 because they've only been playing successfully in the past couple of years, when the general decrease in activity has made champ points harder to get.

Ninja Ninja · Oct 19, 2010, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Ruling out egregious exploitation, the correlation still isn't perfect because of the time factor. It's most apparent in a format like HA, where time is the primary factor in rank, but there are plenty of quality GvGers who are only champ 3-5 because they've only been playing successfully in the past couple of years, when the general decrease in activity has made champ points harder to get.

Either way you're saying inexperienced players slipped by and got into the higher pvp title ranks and are now avoiding discrimination but isn't the main discussion in this thread about how inexperienced players are left out?
Which is it, are they being left out, let in or just enough.

Still Number One · Oct 19, 2010, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninja Ninja

Either way you're saying inexperienced players slipped by and got into the higher pvp title ranks and are now avoiding discrimination but isn't the main discussion in this thread about how inexperienced players are left out?
Which is it, are they being left out, let in or just enough.

Inexperienced players with the right attitude and determination are not left out. Inexperienced players who come in with a "farming" mentality of wanting quick rewards for little effort like you can achieve in PvE are left out.

And by right attitude I don't mean the attitude every single person should have or they are a bad person. I mean the attitude you have to have to withstand all the hurdles that PvP throws at you because of the way it is designed. If you can't withstand those hurdles, then PvP isn't for you.

The people who come on the forums and complain are usually the people who come in without the attitude that GW1 PvP requires you to have. You need to have all those attribute Lemming listed earlier, or you won't be able to make it. That is the design flaw with GW1 PvP. It doesn't cater to everyone. It caters to a certain type of person.

Most players don't want to spend time getting their head beat in and learn to improve. In PvE, you do a farm run 2 or 3 times and you're pretty much good to go from there. In PvP you play two to three games and you are still inexperienced. For a lot of people, that is a deterrent. To those which that is a deterrent, they are left out. For those in which that isn't, they stand a chance to make it in PvP.

Ninja Ninja · Oct 19, 2010, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

Inexperienced players with the right attitude and determination are not left out. Inexperienced players who come in with a "farming" mentality of wanting quick rewards for little effort like you can achieve in PvE are left out.

And by right attitude I don't mean the attitude every single person should have or they are a bad person. I mean the attitude you have to have to withstand all the hurdles that PvP throws at you because of the way it is designed. If you can't withstand those hurdles, then PvP isn't for you.

The people who come on the forums and complain are usually the people who come in without the attitude that GW1 PvP requires you to have. You need to have all those attribute Lemming listed earlier, or you won't be able to make it. That is the design flaw with GW1 PvP. It doesn't cater to everyone. It caters to a certain type of person.

Most players don't want to spend time getting their head beat in and learn to improve. In PvE, you do a farm run 2 or 3 times and you're pretty much good to go from there. In PvP you play two to three games and you are still inexperienced. For a lot of people, that is a deterrent. To those which that is a deterrent, they are left out. For those in which that isn't, they stand a chance to make it in PvP.

People don't realize pvp titles are not meant to be maxed.
You need to treat that r3 gladiator it takes for HoM the same you would vanquishing all of prophecies.

*lemming* · Oct 19, 2010, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninja Ninja

People don't realize pvp titles are not meant to be maxed.
You need to treat that r3 gladiator it takes for HoM the same you would vanquishing all of prophecies.

What do maxed PvP titles have to do with the discussion?

Williwaw87 · Oct 19, 2010, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by doomfodder

Again ANT creates incentive to Play PvE over PvP. Gotta luv the GW2 HoM calculator. At least all players that want "GW reward" in GW2 know just what they need to do in order to MAX the "rewards".

And it turns out that you need EXACTLY ONE PvP item (any PvP title) in your HoM. Thats it??? EVERYTHING ELSE is PvE!!!!

Now I'm certainly no genius, but it seems to me that those gamers that desire a full HoM (per the calculator) will focus their available game time on PvE & NOT PvP.

Anyway, it occurs to me that if ANET wanted to sustain SOME incentive for gamers to choose between PvP over PvE, then maybe they should offer in-game gold for kills in PvP so that those players could also BUY the items they need for a full HoM. Essentially when you play PvP, you are effectively excluded from 49 of the 50 HoM items required for "max rewards" (unless of course you use zkeys from the balth you earn or you get the ZC & trade for zoins items - booze/sweets/party)

Guess I shoulda seen THAT commin.

Don't you need to do a lot of PvP so that you can get titles?

Ninja Ninja · Oct 20, 2010, 12:22 AM // 00:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

What do maxed PvP titles have to do with the discussion?

What I was saying is I think the inactivity in pvp is because pve players are so used to maxing titles when they need to go for a title that only needs a rank 3 instead of maxing they expect to get it as fast as a rank 3 for a pve title which is not the case.

Isn't the thread about pvp inactivity because people see pve as an easier way to fill their HoM and why did you avoid my previous question?

*lemming* · Oct 20, 2010, 01:16 AM // 01:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninja Ninja

What I was saying is I think the inactivity in pvp is because pve players are so used to maxing titles when they need to go for a title that only needs a rank 3 instead of maxing they expect to get it as fast as a rank 3 for a pve title which is not the case.

That seems like an overgeneralization.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninja Ninja

Isn't the thread about pvp inactivity because people see pve as an easier way to fill their HoM and why did you avoid my previous question?

Kind of. The initial premise was that the HoM having more PvP objective to complete would help stimulate activity.

As for the latter point, Nel addressed it already. Performance over time results in titles, which says nothing for those who haven't been performing all that long.

It's not that players with the motivation and skills but without titles are being left out deliberately, it's that there's no good way of filtering them out from everyone else. This is why most people get into PvP through knowing people - it's random opportunities like those that allow players to show their stuff.

helloeveryone · Oct 20, 2010, 01:57 PM // 13:57

IMO. This is a PVE update for PVEers, i don't think any self respectable PvPers would cry foul since nothing rewarded on GW2 have any concern for PVPers at all. Besides, I feel that this title update is very well designed.
It allow both PVPers and PVEer to reach out to each other's title in one way or another.
HOM titles implementation are very thoughtful, maybe it is the player that should stop complaining about something as trivia as a title which the end reward is merely some weapons skin and some PVE title underneath a toon's name......

Both PVPers and PVEers should think in each other's shoe, be understanding to each other and respect each others gaming preference

doomfodder · Oct 20, 2010, 07:12 PM // 19:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by helloeveryone

IMO. This is a PVE update for PVEers, i don't think any self respectable PvPers would cry foul since nothing rewarded on GW2 have any concern for PVPers at all. Besides, I feel that this title update is very well designed.
It allow both PVPers and PVEer to reach out to each other's title in one way or another.
HOM titles implementation are very thoughtful, maybe it is the player that should stop complaining about something as trivia as a title which the end reward is merely some weapons skin and some PVE title underneath a toon's name......

Both PVPers and PVEers should think in each other's shoe, be understanding to each other and respect each others gaming preference

From OP: This thread was NOT inteded to be about PvE'rs vs PvP'rs. Accordingly, I think that there’s an unstated premise here…

GW Gamers can choose to play only PvE, only PvP, or BOTH PvE & PvP.

If you want 50/50, then the HoM structure generally STEERS gamers into PvE and away from PvP because that’s CURRENTLY the “easier path” to reach 50/50. HoM Titles (in and of themselves) are really only the means to an end = “max rewards” in GW2. Since we all have a limited amount of available game time, the most efficient method of reaching 50/50 is to focus on PvE & avoid PvP altogether. A different HoM structure or alternate reward would serve to incent part of the GW player base to play PvP.

Who knows, maybe the future updates that John blogged about will have the effect of stimulating some of the player base into PvP…

I personally hope so (but that's just me)

Chrisworld · Oct 20, 2010, 08:29 PM // 20:29

HoM rewards are for the storyline PvE players of Guildwars. You know, since about 98% of the game is PvE. So if you want silly and useless titles and items for your GW2 character, play PvE and earn them the way they were designed to be earned.

dwchang · Oct 20, 2010, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chrisworld

earn them the way they were designed to be earned.

That's some great advice and since one of the titles is "PvP title," some of us think it should be earned the way it was designed to be earned (i.e. by participating in PvP).

doomfodder · Oct 21, 2010, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windf0rce

Why am I not surprised? Imagine you are a gaming company aiming to make money (of course).

95% of people like PvE (cooperative play).
5% of people like PvP (competitive play).

Which of these playerbases would be worth focusing on? The answer seems way too easy.

PvP is wanted by the minority. Being a minority sucks every area of life, just accept it and move on.

kind of off topic but...

Very interesting choice of words… cooperative & competitive

I presume that you mean:
Cooperative play = humans vs AI
Competitive play = humans vs humans

However, at its core, both GW PvE & PvP are actually all about cooperative play... To play PvP you need to cooperate with team members to kill other teams (coordination leads to a better chance of winning). To play PvE, you need to cooperate with team members to kill the AI (coordination leads to better chance of objective completion). Even if you’re the quintessential casual gamer (H/H solo or soon to be 7 heroes), your play style is actually cooperative with your H/H (although you may have to micro manage more heroes in the future – so be it). As an aside, with the 7 hero structure, you may even actually be inclined to play more solo (unfortunate IMHO, but a likely option for some - especially after GW2 release).

GW is SO RICH and diverse. Ask your self these questions: How many players do you know that have completed EVERY quest in all the games? How many players do you know that have acquired (not unlocked) ALL skills in all the games? How many players do you know that have actually tried EVERY skill in all the games (PvE &/or PvP) ON THEIR OWN BAR? There are simply so many options open to anyone that wants to play GW (although admittedly there are fewer PvP options than PvE options but that's tangential to the point). IMHO, the "fullness" in the game is one main reason why it's been SO successful - since many gamers measure gaming value in $/hr (ie: did I get my moneys worth?)

You can choose to experience it solo if you want to, or you can choose to experience it with other humans. Personally, I prefer gaming with other humans (PvE or PvP) so it doesn’t feel like “solitare”.